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Frithbheart32

Rugby-Playgrounds for the Bourgeois?

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This is more of a personal rant from myself, but Im just wondering what comrades views on rugby are, not the game itself, but the cultural and societal aspect of it?

 

While I appreciate the technical and strategy of games workings, I find the whole 'rugby scene' to be abhorant.

The outwardly snobby tendencies of prominant advocates who brazenly flaunt and revel in their stereotypical 'D4' personas accents and all , the elitist private schools who use it as status symbol to illustrate their exclusive position.

Rugby clubs can most of the time be meeting point for bourgeois business class.

And not forgetting that there are very few rugby clubs in working class neighbourhoods.

 

Granted I accept rugby in Munster is a sport shared among the working and bourgeois classes.

 

But in general, rugby being a great game itself that can inspire healthy competition among counties and provinces, can it be rescued from the Bourgeois goons?

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Guest Felix Rourke

Let them have it - Gaelic Games are up against international sports like Rugby and Soccer and so need a solid base of rural folk

 

The last thing I'd like to see is rugby clubs popping up in small parishes around the country.

 

As much as I despise the GAA for having lost its way (tipping the cap to Lizzie, allowing the colonial militia play, and play in Croker etc etc) I think it's still a vehicle for a nationalism, that although dormant now, that if harnessed properly could be influential.

 

The drive to promote rugby since the early 2000s by the corporate media has been explained by the Irish team becomming "good" - I don't believe that that is the whole story. I think a lot of this promotion of rugby and lately even cricket (with McGuinness saying he loved it, for example), is an attempt at watering down Irishness even in sport, and part of the plan of this "reconciliation" rhetoric where we have to accept that some of us are British and that British "culture" is an actuality, and those who fought at the Somme were on a level par with those who fought in the Rising.

 

This has come about since the capitulation of former Republicans and the rise of the West-Brit media/establishment to an unchallenged pedestal in Free State society - something the IRA bogeyman denied them for so long.

 

Someone needs to write an analysis of the dilution of Gaelic Games and the promotion of foreign ones, as well as the GAA's drift from amateurism to professionalism and Corporations

 

One of the main reasons the GAA has had to turn to multi-nationals for funding/sponsorship is the fact that it cannot keep up with Rugby/Soccer in that regard. It has led to a wearing down of its civic ethos (at least on a national level), while its Republican ethos has been long corroding, with the prostitution to corporations hardly helping there either

 

When I put forward this argument people tell me that sport and politics don't mix or something along those lines. But every facet of culture is political: language, music, sport. That's a whole other issue, but the point is that I think rugby is also political and clearly classist - the imposition of the bourgeois culture upon the uncouth Gael who plays hurling and the urban Dub scumbag who plays soccer.

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I think the garrison mentality that went with rugby before 1921 is still very prevalent. The only reason Ireland has a 32 county team is that it is really a 32 county British team. Another thing I dont like about it - and this can be said about soccer too, is that it is run 100% as a business. At least the GAA has some remainder of amature sport about them. But, of course, the GAA is a cowardly and slavish organisation, that will swallow any infamy - as long as the state grants keep rolling in.

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I could go on a rant for a few paragraphs about why I hate it. The D4 Leinster knobs are the most detestable part of all for me, everything about them; their pseudo american accents, stupid looking surfer hair, designer clothes bought on daddy's credit card and their fucking spoilt selfish outlook on everything. I have the misfortune of playing football with a few of them, they all go to private schools and also play Rugby, my GAA club is packed with them as it's in an area that a lot of them would live in.

 

All of the Belvedere lads on my team were out to see "the queen" last May, I think that says it all really. Elitist, bourgeois and brainwashed.

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Guest Felix Rourke

I play rugby and although it is mainly upper class at the moment, it is broadening out to the working class. The problem is that its mainly the upper class schools that play it. The clubs are a lot more diverse.

 

But why would you want it to broaden out? unless that is you deny that it harbours classist, political and cultural connotations?

 

It clearly does harbour a clique mentality as Connolly16 has pointed out. It's not just about the sport, it's about the look, the lifestyle etc.

 

From where I've seen it broaden out near to me, is in an area where no club existed till about 10 years ago, now there's a cadre of dickheads, who for all intents and purposes are working-class, but who have gravitated to this Rugby club as a means of perceived upward social mobility

 

To be fair they have gained upward social mobility in the sense that the circles they move in now have some deadly looking young ones :lol:

 

That and the macho image is why a lot of them from working-class areas are playing it. They all want to be like Drico and score a bird like Amy Huberman.

 

It goes deeper than that though as well. Just as the colonised apes the coloniser, I think it's the same with class where those 'below' the bourgeoisie try to copy them. This is what Gramsci was on about when he talked about the Hegemonic culture.

 

The media by default have pushed this culture onto people who never had any contact with it over the last 10 years.

 

You know a bit about Rugby. When did Ireland get so good that they were suddenly worth everybody going crazy over them? I know the successes of Munster and Leinster in Europe are a new thing, are they not? But I thought Ireland were a decent team back in the 80s (the last time they won the Triple crown before a few years ago?), but rugby wasn't big them I'm sure.

 

I stand to be corrected on the Ireland team becomming better in the last few years. Even if this is true, then the media have certainly seized on it.

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But why would you want it to broaden out? unless that is you deny that it harbours classist, political and cultural connotations?

 

It clearly does harbour a clique mentality as Connolly16 has pointed out. It's not just about the sport, it's about the look, the lifestyle etc.

 

From where I've seen it broaden out near to me, is in an area where no club existed till about 10 years ago, now there's a cadre of dickheads, who for all intents and purposes are working-class, but who have gravitated to this Rugby club as a means of perceived upward social mobility

 

To be fair they have gained upward social mobility in the sense that the circles they move in now have some deadly looking young ones :lol:

 

That and the macho image is why a lot of them from working-class areas are playing it. They all want to be like Drico and score a bird like Amy Huberman.

 

It goes deeper than that though as well. Just as the colonised apes the coloniser, I think it's the same with class where those 'below' the bourgeoisie try to copy them. This is what Gramsci was on about when he talked about the Hegemonic culture.

 

The media by default have pushed this culture onto people who never had any contact with it over the last 10 years.

 

You know a bit about Rugby. When did Ireland get so good that they were suddenly worth everybody going crazy over them? I know the successes of Munster and Leinster in Europe are a new thing, are they not? But I thought Ireland were a decent team back in the 80s (the last time they won the Triple crown before a few years ago?), but rugby wasn't big them I'm sure.

 

I stand to be corrected on the Ireland team becomming better in the last few years. Even if this is true, then the media have certainly seized on it.

 

I think your trying to see things in rugby that don't exist. Most people play it because they enjoy it. There is no lifestyle or anything around it. Most rugby players going to the traditionally upper class schools would of course set them apart from others, but the solution to that would be working class schools adopting the sport.

 

The whole looks thing is crap too. Obviously rugby players are going to hit the weights and all to beef up as they're playing a full contact sport where strength matters.

 

I don't know much about the history of Irish rugby and I don't really care tbh. I just play it and watch the big games.

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I think your trying to see things in rugby that don't exist. Most people play it because they enjoy it. There is no lifestyle or anything around it. Most rugby players going to the traditionally upper class schools would of course set them apart from others, but the solution to that would be working class schools adopting the sport.

 

The whole looks thing is crap too. Obviously rugby players are going to hit the weights and all to beef up as they're playing a full contact sport where strength matters.

 

I don't know much about the history of Irish rugby and I don't really care tbh. I just play it and watch the big games.

 

Im sure you are right to say that they play it just because they enjoy it - but what are the elements of that enjoyment? What goes on off the pitch is just as important, or more important, than what goes on on it - in any sport, or any human activity. There is definitely a rugby "lifestyle," which is quite different the soccer "lifestyle" for example.

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Im sure you are right to say that they play it just because they enjoy it - but what are the elements of that enjoyment? What goes on off the pitch is just as important, or more important, than what goes on on it - in any sport, or any human activity. There is definitely a rugby "lifestyle," which is quite different the soccer "lifestyle" for example.

 

I don't really see a great difference in rugby lifestyle and GAA lifestyle and I play both. The only differences I notice are because of the class divide, but as I said that seems to be breaking down. Also in the north here there is the religious divide as rugby was traditionally a protestant sport. So your mixing with people you wouldn't see in the GAA.

 

Maybe I'm missing the point but I don't see this lifestyle difference.

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Guest Felix Rourke

I don't really see a great difference in rugby lifestyle and GAA lifestyle and I play both. The only differences I notice are because of the class divide, but as I said that seems to be breaking down. Also in the north here there is the religious divide as rugby was traditionally a protestant sport. So your mixing with people you wouldn't see in the GAA.

 

Maybe I'm missing the point but I don't see this lifestyle difference.

 

As you said, it's probably less apparent in the North where because it was more of a sectarian thing, that a cross-class engagement with rugby emerged, whereas in the south the sectarian barrier didn't really exist, after the Free State was founded.

 

The way Catholics in affluent areas attempted to become part of the bourgeois culture (which was by default Protestant), was to copy their habits. You can even see this in terms of where these Catholic nouevau riche moved to: they began to inhabit the old stronghold of ascendency Ireland of "Old Money" in Dublin, around 'Kingstown', Foxrock etc,

 

Before that, not many Catholics wouldn't have been able to afford to buy in that area until the last of the Land Acts were passed, and "indepdence" was granted.

 

In the north the fact that society remained segregated obviously stopped Catholics there doing likewise

 

As for the look, I'm referring not only to them beefing up, but to their fashion as well - you can spot them from a mile off - Hollister, Ambercrombie and Fitch. That Ross O'Carroll Kelly caricature of these people didn't appear out of air!

 

As for the lifestyle as fodhla has touched on, of course there is a lifestyle around it. A social element exists around every sport. Just like politics when people come into contact with each other they for formal things they also socialise. Republicans have ballad and traditional nights. Ruggers have nights out in posh Dublin night clubs. Then these people because they socialise and do sport together become friends and move in the same social circles, mostly.

 

Also the GAA jocks can be just as bad these days in terms of their carry on on nights out.

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As you said, it's probably less apparent in the North where because it was more of a sectarian thing, that a cross-class engagement with rugby emerged, whereas in the south the sectarian barrier didn't really exist, after the Free State was founded.

 

The way Catholics in affluent areas attempted to become part of the bourgeois culture (which was by default Protestant), was to copy their habits. You can even see this in terms of where these Catholic nouevau riche moved to: they began to inhabit the old stronghold of ascendency Ireland of "Old Money" in Dublin, around 'Kingstown', Foxrock etc,

 

Before that, not many Catholics wouldn't have been able to afford to buy in that area until the last of the Land Acts were passed, and "indepdence" was granted.

 

In the north the fact that society remained segregated obviously stopped Catholics there doing likewise

 

As for the look, I'm referring not only to them beefing up, but to their fashion as well - you can spot them from a mile off - Hollister, Ambercrombie and Fitch. That Ross O'Carroll Kelly caricature of these people didn't appear out of air!

 

As for the lifestyle as fodhla has touched on, of course there is a lifestyle around it. A social element exists around every sport. Just like politics when people come into contact with each other they for formal things they also socialise. Republicans have ballad and traditional nights. Ruggers have nights out in posh Dublin night clubs. Then these people because they socialise and do sport together become friends and move in the same social circles, mostly.

 

Also the GAA jocks can be just as bad these days in terms of their carry on on nights out.

 

Its worth noting on your above point that the area of South East Dublin/Wicklow has a huge Protestant population, there is an abundance of Protestant churches in that area, mainly Church of Ireland/Anglicans, I think this is significant, it shows the the remnants of the planter asendency class is still alive and well in 'Kingstown', also the more working class Southern Protestant through fear of discrimination from the Catholic churchs manipulation of the fresstate in its early be it rational or irrationale they flocked to D4, South East Coast, North Wicklow more aristocratic Protestant cousins, they are in turned joined by social consious 'Castle Catholics' and this mish mash has resulted in the Bourgeois West Brit culture that has emerged there and influenced other wannabe snobs.

 

Religion is less important nowadays but the practise of class supremacy and flaunting of lavishness and wealth is still at the fore.

 

Rugby culture was born out of this class and is in ways an affront to working class who they dont wont playing 'their' game

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As you said, it's probably less apparent in the North where because it was more of a sectarian thing, that a cross-class engagement with rugby emerged, whereas in the south the sectarian barrier didn't really exist, after the Free State was founded.

 

The way Catholics in affluent areas attempted to become part of the bourgeois culture (which was by default Protestant), was to copy their habits. You can even see this in terms of where these Catholic nouevau riche moved to: they began to inhabit the old stronghold of ascendency Ireland of "Old Money" in Dublin, around 'Kingstown', Foxrock etc,

 

Before that, not many Catholics wouldn't have been able to afford to buy in that area until the last of the Land Acts were passed, and "indepdence" was granted.

 

In the north the fact that society remained segregated obviously stopped Catholics there doing likewise

 

As for the look, I'm referring not only to them beefing up, but to their fashion as well - you can spot them from a mile off - Hollister, Ambercrombie and Fitch. That Ross O'Carroll Kelly caricature of these people didn't appear out of air!

 

As for the lifestyle as fodhla has touched on, of course there is a lifestyle around it. A social element exists around every sport. Just like politics when people come into contact with each other they for formal things they also socialise. Republicans have ballad and traditional nights. Ruggers have nights out in posh Dublin night clubs. Then these people because they socialise and do sport together become friends and move in the same social circles, mostly.

 

Also the GAA jocks can be just as bad these days in terms of their carry on on nights out.

 

I duno about down there but the amount of people up here who wear holister and chinos is insane and it's not just rugby people. It all kicked off when holister opened up. Tbh it's the people who own the shops who control what people wear through ads etc.

Most people hit the nightclubs and stuff and defo not just ruggers.

 

I don't see the problem with that lifestyle anyway.

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Guest Felix Rourke

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0515/1224316128111.html?via=mr

 

 

"In truth, it's a love affair like no other nation's"

 

This despite hardly anyone I know plays it. The fact that a large majority of rural Ireland are scores, if not hundreds, of miles from the nearest rugby club. While I've never heard of rugby in working-class areas of our largest cities. Yet still it is somehow a "love affair" of nation. How is this so? clearly it is the fantasy of an elite in one corner of Dublin and some pockets of Munster that rugby should be the sport of the nation over our actual national and historic games of Hurling and Football.

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http://www.irishtime...111.html?via=mr

 

 

"In truth, it's a love affair like no other nation's"

 

This despite hardly anyone I know plays it. The fact that a large majority of rural Ireland are scores, if not hundreds, of miles from the nearest rugby club. While I've never heard of rugby in working-class areas of our largest cities. Yet still it is somehow a "love affair" of nation. How is this so? clearly it is the fantasy of an elite in one corner of Dublin and some pockets of Munster that rugby should be the sport of the nation over our actual national and historic games of Hurling and Football.

 

In the north when I went to away matches, I frequently ended up in a dirty loyalist working class estate far away from main city's. So for up here its wrong to say its all upper class and urban. Though schools rugby can be very upper class I think.

 

As for your earlier post on rugby and GAA culture, in Belfast, a lot of GAA heads are running about like the fucking Geordie Shore with tans and chinos these days ffs, so rugby isn't bad. In saying that the same people can be easily seen with the rest, delving back into the sectarian culture of singing Celtic songs and fighting loyalists plus cops after a pint or ten if that helps lol.

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